Interview with Alain Schroeder / #URBANinsights

#URBANinsights are a series of exclusive interviews and insights dedicated to the winners of URBAN Photo Awards. The #URBANinsights of today is an interview with Alain Schroeder, Winner of the 2022 edition of the contest, for the category Projects & Portfolios with his “Muay Thai Kids”, chosen by Shobha.

Thank you for taking time to talk to us, and congratulations on winning the award for your project Muay Thai Kids, a series as much of a hard life as it is about the reality of living and surviving it in the ring.

For Thai people, Muay Thai is so engraved in their culture, that very few parents think that way. There is no issue for them, nor the kids, who are proud to help their families. It’s just the normal way of life. I have seen mothers, fathers and grandparents cheering at the side of the ring; entire families preparing kids for the fights.

Personally, I don’t like the betting aspect of the sport. The money involved puts too much pressure on the kids.

I agree with the medical staff of Thailand’s Mahidol University who, following a comparison of brain scans of fighters versus non-fighters, concluded that allowing children under the age of 15 to box could lead to various types of brain damage.

Recently, after the death of a teenager during a bout, Thai lawmakers again proposed a ban on competition for children under 12, but actual legislation has yet to pass. Attitudes are slowly changing, and Thai officials (and other educated people) are beginning to take the health of children into account, but kid boxers do not come from wealthy families. The majority are from poor communities (mainly from the Isan region) where Muay Thai provides vital income, often well above what parents can earn. Solving that problem is the first step toward change.

How long did it take you to complete this project from the time you first thought of it? How did you go about planning it, including access, logistics etc.?

I had been thinking about the project for a few years already. I have many folders on many subjects to shoot in various contries. I wanted to show Muay Thai practiced by kids not adults. I had seen a picture of a young boy, aged 5-6, with boxing gloves and a frightened look in his eyes. That triggered the idea to shoot the story,

I went to Thailand in December 2021 at a time when they eased COVID-19 restrictions and restored fights. I started to shoot in a gym in the northeast part of Thailand. I followed the fighters in the gym, at school, at home,… and then during a week-long competition in Surin with many other young fighters; a total of three weeks of shooting.
Thai people are very friendly and welcoming, so the whole process was seamless.
Seeing young kids training with discipline and dedication was quite impressive. As with all sports, they are developing skills both mentally and physically for the rest of their lives, but I felt that it was not enough to tell the complete story, so I spent six evenings at a Muay Thai tournament in Surin. Competing is a whole other story. Aside from the physical pain there is the pressure from the family, the trainer, not to mention the repeated blows which can jeopardize the kids’ health. I showed what is happening in the ring so that people can draw their own conclusions about kids boxing.

The image of a child sleeping while clutching a doll brings home the stark contrast between the violence in the sport and the innocence of an age that’s tender besides hinting at what’s at stake from being lost in the process of practicing the sport.

Where was this and what were your thoughts when you came upon this scene?

In fact, the kids wake up very early and sometimes run before going to school. By 4 PM they are tired and usually take a nap before the afternoon training session which goes from 5 to 6.30 PM.

This kid (10 years old) became a world champion in Bangkok in his weight category a few days before I shot this image. The good news is that they still act like kids outside the ring. I saw him playing with friends around the gym for hours the following weekend.

The world over, more so in developing countries, children are put to work to help out with money for the family, and at other times are involved in practices as a continuing tradition rooted in religion or culture or history.

When you stay with them for a long time you begin to better understand their motivation. For kids from modest backgrounds, Muay Thai offers a chance at a better future for themselves and their families. It’s important to understand the context.

For the last picture of the series, I intentionally put the shot of the kid crying in his corner. The referee immediately saw his distress and stopped the bout. From his facial expression and body language it was clear that he did not want to continue. The issues are obvious; his young age, the lack of protective gear and the pressure to be in the ring. But when thinking about that you also have to understand the Thai point of view that is very different then ours.

I am opposed to children being used for entertainment and financial gain, and the fact that Muay Thai is an ancient Thai sport should not mean it can be practiced without regulation.

Any particular reason for choosing Muay Thai Kids as an important story to tell as opposed to say children working in farms or run-down hotels among others?

Muay Thai is an ancient martial art, deeply engrained and respected in Thai culture. It is a fierce fighting style that requires discipline, mental strength and commitment, but it is so much more. Honor, respect, ritual and religious teachings also play a role.

I started my story at a gym owned by a Canadian woman and Thai man. I was impressed by the dedication of all the fighters (girls and boys from 6 to 20 years old) who are eager to adhere to the strict discipline imposed on them. Every day, they run, hit sandbags, do push-ups and abs to strengthen their bodies. They have fun doing it and push themselves to improve. It requires real commitment given the demanding nature of the sport. And, at the same time they all go to school to get an education. At this gym, they can choose to fight in the ring or just train, and if they want to stop it’s no problem. This is not the case in other gyms run only by locals.

About my feelings: during the week of competition in Surin, I was afraid to see bad things happen, but I immediately realized that for the very young fighters (aged 6-10) the referees are extremely attentive and careful. They stop the match as soon as one fighter overtakes another. I did not see any injuries. In fact, the young kids have little technique and not much power. 90% of their hits don’t make contact with their opponent. They are swinging at air.

Considering that the practice of Muay Thai is not for the faint-hearted at gut level, a spectacle that many might think twice about attending, what did you hope to achieve by documenting the practice for the larger audience? And what do you hope this project does for the immediate community involved in it?

The positive side is definitely the training part of the sport. I practiced sports (tennis, swimming, football,…) from a very young age (6-7), and I really value the life skills – hard work, discipline, fair play, respect for others – that I learned. Being in a gym and part of a team keeps them away from trouble, drugs, alcohol, prostitution,…

The negative aspect is the potential health risk for the kids. When families are able to support themselves without the help of their children, everyone will benefit.

The immediate community involved in it will probably never see my story and if so, it is hard to anticipate their reactions. They will probably be proud to be the center of attention in a european media.

Among the projects in Asia you’ve worked on, including but not limited to “Dead Goat Polo”, “Kid Jockeys”, “Kushti”, “Moharram”, “Living for Death” and “Muay Thai Kids”, a sense of spectacle and drama runs as a common thread, be it dramatic scenes or practices that are uncommon, maybe even surprising to a Western audience while being familiar to a non-western one.
Is your choice of subjects deliberate in view of the audience you want to reach?
No.

Or is it something that appeals to you personally? What do you look for before deciding upon a project?
I like to tell stories in a personal, visual way. I try to be impartial in the sense that I don’t want to misguide the audience about what I saw, but I always try to do it in a more personal way, by the sense of framing, the use of color or black and white,.. Shooting a series gives a better understanding of a story. In general, I am not a single shot photographer. I think in series. Editing is key. You can tell one story or another by where you place the accent. Both have to be true.

Work shapes us as much as we shape work. Did the process of completing “Muay Thai Kids” change you in any way, be it in outlook, or sensibility or any other?
No, the reason is that having spent so much time in Asia over the last 50 years, I understand why these stories happen in Asia. But don’t get me wrong. I don’t endorse these fights.

Additionally, among the projects you’ve completed which one had the most impact on you personally in how you look at life or a shift in perspective in how you look at society or some other?
Afghanistan in 1974. Coming from the Iranian border, I arrived in Afghanistan late
in the afternoon. The dusty main street of Herat (western Afghanistan) was backlit by the sun.
Seeing turbaned men, horse carts, veiled women; it was visually magical, like entering
another dimension. I had not often felt such a dramatic change of scenery. It was like
travelling back in time to the Middle Ages. I returned several times, the last time was in
1978 one year before the Russian invasion, and then the war prevented me from going
back there for 30 years. In 2015, I returned to Afghanistan for a few days via Tajikistan.
Nothing has changed. People are always so welcoming. It is a country frozen in time.

As a photo journalist and a documentary photographer who has travelled the world to bring stories that are visual landscapes in their own right, commanding immediate attention from wandering eyes, what do you feel about a globalising world where native cultures are in the process of losing their uniqueness (and age-old identity) as they increasingly conform to “modernising influences” disseminated by a global media and other sources? Do you feel that the world at large is losing out on precious cultural heritage? If yes, is this also a driving factor of sorts pushing you onward? And is it possible that photography can help slow this down, or maybe reverse it in the future unless it is too late to do so?

It is hard to tell. Everyone wants a better life and parents want their kids to have a better future without having to forfeit the customs or traditions that hold great importance to their societies. Photography can certainly raise awareness by illustrating and documenting cultural practices and the economic and social issues that they engender, but it is unlikely to slow down or reverse any trends on its own. To effectively preserve cultural heritage in an ever-changing world, a combination of education, conservation efforts, and government action is needed.

Kid Jockeys is a good example of an ongoing tradition evolving in a modern world. In a few words it is the story of fearless child jockeys aged 5-10, who mount bareback, barefoot and with little protective gear, racing at speeds of up to 80 kms per hour on small horses typical of that region (Sumbawa, Indonesia). As I spent more time on the racetrack, I began to finetune my approach to the series. In the beginning, I thought it was all about sports, but as I discovered the off-track rituals, I began to edit my pictures to reflect the bigger story. I was also impressed by the contrast between modern Indonesian lifestyle, this local custom, and the way they choose to live their passion with their horses. The tradition of racing there has not changed in over a century.

The only aspect I did not like was the fact that the kids do not wear helmets. Barefoot, bareback is fine but you know (or should know) that despite the protection of the healer, almost inevitably, you will fall one day. And that day, a helmet could save your life or at least limit the damage of the fall. Well, the adults should know…

Where do you draw your inspiration from that informs and shapes your photographic eye – movies, books, photographers? What is your favourite photography quote?
I’m most interested in the in-depth reporting of stories relating to people and their environment. Various cultures, modes of living, rituals and customs fascinate me. I strive to tell a story in 10-15 pictures capturing the essence of an instant with a sense of light and perfect framing.

Whatever the situation, there is always a good picture to be taken.

In what way has your background in Photo Journalism shaped your approach to photography? And has this approach changed over the years?
In photojournalism, the important thing is that light helps you tell the story and that is hard to explain in a few words. A few months ago, I was asked to review some portfolios and I found that a few photographers did not understand how to use light to set the mood in their stories. Have you ever noticed that in a movie it often rains when something sad or a murder is going to happen? Then one photographer showed me night pictures of his story on factories in the middle of a town in Brazil, and that was the perfect light for the subject. It was very good because parts of the image were very dark and you could see some windows well lit with people inside. The same pictures in daylight would not have been as interesting. Choosing the moment to shoot a story is sometimes as important as the story itself, but of course it is not always possible.

What would you tell someone wanting to pursue documentary photography in terms of what it takes to make it? While it’s common to be advised to follow what interests you, what would you suggest that photographers go out and document in the larger scheme of things that can benefit humanity be it at a local or a regional level?
Let’s start with the advice I did not get when I was a young photographer. I started to study
photography in 1971. I had very good technical B&W teachers (of course analog at the time,
which has helped me a lot throughout my career) but unfortunately nobody in the
photojournalism field. I had to learn by myself when I started as a professional sports
photographer. To give you an example, over the summer holidays in 1974, I hitchhiked
from Belgium to Afghanistan crossing Europe, Turkey, and Iran for my final school project.
Along the way I documented people in all those countries but I « forgot » to make a story
about the people in their twenties called hippies, who were traveling the world. At the time I did not
understand the journalistic value of that particular story because I had no
photojournalism background, only an aesthetic approach to photography.

To give advice, I have to share an interesting experience I had when I was a sports
photographer. I was invited for many years to participate in the making of the
book «Roland Garros seen by the 20 best tennis photographers in the world» managed
by Yann Arthus-Bertrand, the famous French filmmaker and photographer. In the confined
area of Roland Garros, the idea was that every day 20 photographers had to bring back
a few good pictures that were immediately displayed on a wall. Yann would select the
best ones for the book. Some days you did not even make the wall selection!
But every day your colleagues made good pictures sometimes when you had not seen
anything special. They might have found a new location, a new way of seeing things
from a higher perspective or taken photos at night after the matches, etc.
What does it mean? The pictures are there, they exist. You have to ask yourself,
how can I make a good picture and where is the best place, then find the spot and
make it happen (I mean wait for it to happen not provoke it). So I know that the
pictures « exist » in a sense, and if I don’t get them myself another photographer
in the same place will find the way to reveal them. There is always a good picture to be taken,
you just have to work hard to get it. That idea never leaves me.